Email correspondence about
ZORASTRE and LIGHT

context:
As I was loading a page on Akhnaton's relationship with Egypt's outside,
notes and discussion were launched about the Zoroastrian religion and prophet
(in blue my correspondents - this color, myself)

LIST of the MESSAGES

• 1) Question and info - about Akhnaton-Moses-Oedipus with Zorastre

• 2) Answer - the traditional Northern component and a biographical episode

• 3) Notion - a monotheism and a corruption

• 4) Notion - a monotheism and a corruption makes a trine

• 5) Notion - plural identity

• 6) Answer - Human Identity - historicity and religion
  continuing sub-thread :

• 7) Question and info - about light phenomenon and psychological experiences

• 8) Answer - about Dr. Francis Lefebure idea.

1)  Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:33:41 -0500
From: Tony Smith <tsmith@innerx.net>

As to early historical figures, such as Akhenaton and Moses, being monotheists, what about Zarathustra, who came from central Asia?

Although the Encylopaedia Britannica dates him at about 600 BC, others date him from 1700 BC to 1000 BC, as described at URL
http://www.walker.reston.va.us:8080/hmgs/Z/zardusht.html

If the earlier dates are correct, then might he be the oldest historical monotheist?

2)  Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:25:51 -0600
From: Zenon Kelper <wtheaux@club-internet.fr>

Thank you tsmith@innerx.net for your msg about Zarathushtra. There are 2 notes:

1/ you will find a link with the above referred page, at ../../../dna/members/akh/suba/saf.htm where I partly study what I call the "northern" component of Akhnatonism, according to the work of R.Steiner. The Celtic tradition is mentioned there. This is just to indicate the opening which indeed brings the Zar. notion with it. The boundaries of this extension are very vague but its domain seems certain.

2/ the second note may be more personal - but for methodological reason I must expose some information about my biography inasmuch it is related to the HermAkhMosOed [HAMO] work.

The story begins when I was young Dr. and studying Psychiatry - I meet in Paris a man that my science diagnosed as very typical paranoia case - Dr. F. Lefebure [FL]. I met him once and began to experiment the practices and exercises he was studying. He referred them to a Zoroastrian initiation - they were basically based on neural stimulation with light in certain conditions.
During years I practiced his recommendations for they were very relaxing, apparently innocuous and pleasant. At the same time, for other reasons, I happened to face the HAMO riddle. 20 years after my first and only meeting with FL, I was eventually with my HAMO equation and a vague memory of FL's theory of his 'Phosphenic-Christianity.' With tenderness for the extravagant character, I could tack him back and telephoned him - to give him another extravagant theory to rumble wit ! He was still alive and even more frenetic - for he had discovered - he told me - an ultimate machine which gave confirmation to his theory.
He sent me books and other recommendations and I could eventually try his 'machine' (a very simple trick to work neural afterimages). Unfortunately he suddenly died at that time.

Here is the very condensed and summarize story of my relation with Dr. FL <GOTO bellow> (which revealed later to be much more complex and intense). I experimented his 'ultimate machine', enough to realize how it was powerful - and therefore rather dangerous. I mention this in a note, only to assess the link of HAMO with the Zar. tradition that I am convinced of.

The problem, as tsmith@innerx.net notice and mention in the page he refers to - is that we are, for the present time, lacking of historical artifacts, to make a proper use of it. But I fully agree and I am sorry for having not enough time or expertise to mention all this dimension on the akhnaton.net site. I hope that in the future, this missing point will be filled up.

3)  Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:23:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "Kent D. Palmer, Ph.D." <palmer@netcom.com>

>From the point of view of Islam Zorastre was a Prophet and thus a Monotheist. Most Scholars agree that Zorastre was a Monotheist whose teaching was corrupted into dualism. He was the only known Prophet to the Indo-europeans. Do not know his time period however.

4)  Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:23:59 -0500
From: atif.khalil@utoronto.ca

I'm not sure if it would be accurate to say that Zoroastrianism was a monotheism corrupted into dualism; this would imply that the two are irreconcilable. In fact, the religion of Zoroaster is at once monotheist and dualist. The "spirit of evil" or "hostile spirit", Angra Mainyu, stands in opposition not to Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) but to the "beneficent spirit", Spenta Mainyu. Both Mainyus (spirits) are twin children of Ahura Mazda. It would seem then that above and beyond the dualism of the "good" and "evil" spirits, there is a monotheism, whose Supreme Being is beyond good and evil.

(cf. Encyclopedia of Religion p.579)

5)  Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:12:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Moriba Jah <jahm@pr.erau.edu>

Akhenaten could be the one known as Hur, companion to Moses. Look into this, if you will and can. Akhenaten could also be Judah Ben Hur, from the times of Jesus. Moses could be Jesus. John the Baptist, being Elijah, was also Aaron, companion of Moses. Again, the work has been a group effort and has been continuous. Moses's son Esen, founded the contemporary Essene Brotherhood, which is just an extension from what came from Egypt. Akhenaten could also have been Taharqa, from the 25th Dynasty.

6)  The object of the present page - today 1997 12 09

The above messages are all linked to a scientific observation :
The problem of Zarathushtra's time will never be solved, unless some (improbable) archaeological find turns up. And beyond the problem of his datation, the problem of his identity may be added.
Zoraster is comparable with Trismegistus in many respects. Once the archeological data will (perhaps) be acquired, we shall encounter a psychological problem which regards our present time as well.

The question is that of the Historical figure and of the identity of a human person. As we have the opportunity today, to reflect on/with Artificial Intelligence, one wonders if a computer will identify a human as me, you, the thirteen clones of you, all of us, only the President(e)?
The beginning of the answer may have started with Freud, who may have set a definition of the ego, after Descartes'. As the Cartesian ego was as immovable as the ancient Earth was flat (and thus questioning the reason), Freud's gave it a scale of reference.

A picture shows a first approximation of Freud's system - in his graph Freud intended to show the variation  - swaying - of the ego's investment, either towards Ideal either object (this has been compared with Copernicus first approximation - Earth floating somewhere between a Sun oscillation and an outer cosmic sphere). In Freud's model Ideal and objects are more or less, Significands, Representants, idealized things.

Since the ego is 'oscillating' within a sea of names, he would become historical when he would relate with a limited and well defined set of symbols. This is what Freud began to formulate in terms of Oedipus Complex - three symbols, three names or three beings were involved in Freud's assessment; yet he also theorized them as 'phases' or mode which were organized as sphincter phases.
It is very tempting to consider that the three unfolding phases of an Akh-Mos-Oed would represent three 'world-views' which combine to conclude into an historical being.
This is not ruling out the possibility of more phases - that would be indeed expected if mankind's mode exists someday beyond the Oedipus Complex. The point I am here emphasizing is the conjunction between the threefold identity and its material correlation with a DNA set.

The single Significand Akhnaton, nor Moses, or Oedipus ('Orpheus' actually) do not point out specifically toward a personal genome. As Moriba says, Moses could be Jesus ; what is refered there is a symbol or an Ideal more that a citizen - Akhnaton alone likewise, is probably more appropriate to represent a God (perhaps in J.Jaynes understanding). It is only when a specifically linked compound of three names, that the human and/or historical being can be acknowledged and a freudian ego expected.
From my point of view, this is also a composition which enables a DNA set to operate genetic engineering - to realize some kind of Hyper-Meme, if you wish (actually, simply a meme, I guess).

The Freudian idea was that the structure of a religion was also dependent on these form of psychology - thus polytheism, manicheism, or monotheism according to the symbolic representant, until History itself may represent what religions preambles for an historical phenomenon.

If all this is correct, we hold there (with the 'three-relation' being) an essential notion, not only for the participation of the human individual in a cybernetical environment - but also for his guidance regarding Ethics and genetics engineering.

END OF THE HISTORICAL ZORASTRISM THREAD PART.1 To follow the Thread, PART.2

The next message - and following - are related to
the above mention of exercise with light <UPTO thread> - and
may  not be entirely relevant with the Zorastre question.

7)  Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:37:40 -0500
From: Tony Smith <tsmith@innerx.net>

You mention that FL used Zoroastrian initiation practices based on neural stimulation with light in certain conditions, and that he had a machine that worked with neural afterimages, and that his machine was powerful and therefore rather dangerous.

How does his machine compare with light stimulation machines sometimes called Mind Machines, such as those described at URL
http://www.mind-gear.com/faq.htm

Also, there is an interesting history page about such machines at URL
http://www.comptronic.com/history.htm

but it does not have much very early history. It only mentions Ptolemy at about 200 AD and then mentions the 17th century and then goes to the 1800s, but then has a lot of references going on to the present, and it certainly does not get back to HAMO or Z.

8) Answer - The sub-object of the present page - today 1997 12 09

Quite interesting pages. I noticed that the mention of Ptolemy is preceded by an evocation of the very early ages, in the prehistoric times when people where spending long hours looking at the fire.
Dr.FL made notice that animals also were exercising in such ways - when elephants face the sunset and sway (according to his observation). Collective swaying was the cause of such phenomenon which were called miracle at Fatima - said Dr.FL. According to his theory powerful effects resulted from the conjunction of light and idealization - especially when it was the afterimage which was blended with the imaginative imagery.

The sites you mentions are very interesting, indeed - especially since the afterimage is never mentioned in the description of the mind-machines with their operation.  It is really remarkable, for they all mention flickering light a lot - but not the luminous form which persists in the perceptive field after a steady and long enough gaze at a light source (Wilhelm Reich also mention this phenomenon).
After years of research Dr.FL discovered a most simple way to produce a motion within these afterimage form. As I said, I have experimented his technique and made very basic and impressive observations that I have never found explained by neurology. It is remarkable that this does not seem to be approach by the mind-machine exploration.
Recently, a friend told me that he had been introduced to a possible similar observation, years ago in NY, by a man called Gist Talmist - who was probably from India. He was also impressed but never saw Gist again.

and now...

QUIZ - was Akhnaton gazing at the sun ?

QUIZ - what was the color of Zarathushtra's camel ?

The QUIZ has been answered, and morevoer,
the thread has been continued.

END OF THE EXERCISE WITH LIGHT  THREAD PART.1 To follow the Thread, PART.2

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